More of my discussion with Blackmoor Original Player Chuck Monson. Again, my questions in italics:
Did (do?) you prefer tabletop wargaming over D&D style dungeon delving?
I like both styles of gaming. Role playing is a great deal of fun for me because I like to be involved in stories with other players. I like the spontaneity of play and the creativity of adventures. I also consider myself an avid table top miniatures wargamer for historical wargames: Napoleonic land battles being a favorite period. Wesley's Strategos N was a lot of fun, but too siege oriented at times (the Totten effect). All in all, after nearly forty years of this hobby, role playing remains a favorite pastime.
In the First Fantasy Campaign you are mentioned in a section where it says: "Later, the game moved south.... Major border changes occurred when Monson was wiped out.... Significant event included a Nomad attack from the Duchy of Ten that was wiped out by Svenson and the Sniders. A great Peasant revolt that wiped out Monson, badly hurt Nelson and was then wiped out by all the other players. An expedition to the City of the Gods (located in the Desert south of Monson's old place)..." Was the peasant revolt mentioned in the paragraph a tabletop battle you played out?
I remember gathering forces and building a strong point to defend. I don't think any of us there knew what to expect. David had his fun too. Yes, my great plans fell awry. The first 'fall' was pretty hard fought, but overwhelming invaders. That was when I figured out the meaning of 'Ten'... David multiplied the opponents by huge numbers and stomped his way through the defenses. A second defense was even more crushed, but noting the game history, it took all the other players to counter the events. As I can't remember any table top battle, likely not. There would have been heaps of figures on the tables, the floor, the stairs... LOL.
Did you have anything to do with the Duchy of Ten Nomads or the Peshwa?
No, I had nothing to do with the Nomads or the Peshwa.
Did you adventure at all in the City of The Gods?
No, I did not venture to the City. I was after all only a weekend visitor from 150 miles away.
Did "Monson's old place" have a name?
It was only a place for the one battle. No one was left alive to remember a name, or didn't care to do so. LOL.
I've made the argument that Arneson was using a variant of Weselys Strategos N, since that's what those guys seemed to have used for everything, but others have thought that he was probably using CHAINMAIL by Gygax and Perren to resolve the battles. Any idea?
I thought David was winging it much of the time and used brief references on notepaper at best. Certainly no copy of Chainmail or other rules clarified his numeric horde armies. I never saw anyone referencing Chainmail after the earliest of days. I picked up a copy of CM perhaps ten years later, then lost it.
I found the tales of who influenced whom very typical for revisionists wanting intellectual property control. In reality, gamers 30 or more years ago really adapted from many sources, including literature and actual games. Had anyone thought to ask from where did Chainmail derive its data and terminology? CM is not the font of all being in RPG, just another reference with a muddied history. Personally, I am more convinced that Tony Bath has the earliest published common source. Then again, there are WWII simulation rules that formulate a single soldier running through sand firing an SMG (Korne's Rules). A gaming buddy and I used to name our characters to play on a sand table we built in his basement.
Monson On Playing and Wargaming
Author: DHBoggs /BEYOND THIS POINT BE DRAGONS: Mystery Solved, Mystery Deepens
Author: DHBoggs / Labels: Beyond This Point Be Dragons, History, Original Players4) Gygax claimed to have edited two drafts of D&D, and Arneson mentioned only creating a single unused "final draft". Since BTPbD did not reasonably appear to be either of the Gygax drafts, Arneson's draft alone remained as the best fit explanation for BTPbD.
That's the same Chuck Monson, interviewed in our previous post, who played in Blackmoor and is mentioned in the FFC. In the course of our dialog he told me about a manuscript he used to run games in Duluth He said, (questions from me in italics)
"David allowed me to copy his notes in those days and that copy was my source to continue gaming back in Duluth for a couple of years during my college days. I wore the ink off the pages running my own campaign. This was before any formal publication of D&D.
I also remember that my copy of David's notes was from another copy. The graphics were in background on graph paper and the lines were clearer than in the OD&D publication, but those marks were still evident there. My copy was on a heat-transfer ink copier so the ink sat on top of the heavy paper.
Hard to recall the drawings. They included at least one sketch of a map and a monster certainly as an example and the graph paper it was drawn on was much clearer than as later appeared in the D&D booklets.
Was this a "clean" copy or did it have scribbled hand written corrections or additions into the margins or anything like that. I realize that may be something too difficult to recall.
Certainly difficult to recall, and, no, no marginalia that I can image. Unlike Harry Potter, no magical notations to casting ."
I also sent him a copy of the BTPbD manuscript and mentioned that one of the images had also been found in a Flyer from Contax. I asked if the manuscript rang any bells. Here is his response (questions from me in italics):
"I know something of this.
Contax: hearing that again caused me to remember vaguely using that group name for about one hour, then forgetting it. One of those vain moments in college gaming days. It referenced my Duluth gaming friends in that day with hopes of contacting other players.
Among them was Mark Bufkin whose enthusiasm produced Beyond This Point Be Dragons. Mark's effort was to reduce the die rolling to d6's, not the polygonal version. I do not believe he ever ran a game with those rules.
At some time I mentioned this to Prof. Barker and later delivered the only copy I had ever seen (actually unread until the car trip to the Twin Cities) . Barker remarked right away that it looked like a copy of Arneson's work. That made me uncomfortable, but it was after all not mine to defend. Barker gave me a copy of his Wizard's War game at the time. Barker was engaged with serious discussions of his intellectual property rights with TSR, but I think this was prior to the link to David Arneson's share holding interest in TSR.
Mark was more engaged in his fantasy baseball league at the time. His team in the 1970's was the Texas Rangers. That puts my contact time with Mark around 1971 to 1975. "
In your earlier email you mentioned "David allowed me to copy his notes in those days and that copy was my source to continue gaming back in Duluth for a couple of years during my college days." Were those notes what Mark Bufkin used to create his copy or was he working off of something else?
"I have to think that Mark worked from my copy but perhaps this was after the very first three book set was published and of course in his own style on a typewriter.
Mark never ventured to the Twin Cities nor did he play with David Arneson during the time of our gaming friendship. "
Do you know if he drew the art in BTPbD?
"I did presume at the time that he did draw that artwork himself. There were no other common sources for us to work with that I recall. "
There is a reference to Narnia as one of several fantasy world examples. Was Narnia an inspirational setting in your gaming group?
"Mark would definitely be the most likely party to refer to Narnia. No one else in my gaming group in those days had read the CS Lewis works. This gave Mark a lot of story material which we would enjoy.
My gaming story backgrounds were from reading the Ballantine Adult Fantasy series and then R. E. Howard's various tales."
There are instructions in the manuscript for using playing cards to randomly generate percentiles. Was using playing cards like that something you guys used to do?
"No, the playing card randomizers were only in Mark's game play. I don't recall much more than that. "
Melted like cheese on plate armor. ...
Author: DHBoggs / Labels: Gaming Style, History, Original Players, Player CharacterIn the First Fantasy Campaign, under the section titled Campaign Map Notes, we find the following, ""Later, the game moved south.... Major border changes occurred when Monson was wiped out.... Significant event included a Nomad attack from the Duchy of Ten that was wiped out by Svenson and the Sniders. A great Peasant revolt that wiped out Monson, badly hurt Nelson and was then wiped out by all the other players. An expedition to the City of the Gods (located in the Desert south of Monson's old place)..."
Poor Monson. "Monson" refers to Chuck Monson, and aside from this entry in the FFC, he's not someone we've heard a lot about in regards to Blackmoor. As his name came up recently in regards to Beyond This Point be Dragons, I thought someone should remedy that situation. I'll be doing several posts on what Mr Monson has to say, but we'll start with his introduction. So here is Chuck Monson, original Blackmoor player, in his own words:
About Me
- DHBoggs
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