tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138202318040749770.post5998155328953656575..comments2024-03-27T03:57:15.522-04:00Comments on Hidden in Shadows: How many actual editions are there?DHBoggshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02170439175265397893noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138202318040749770.post-60270693589720082752022-09-04T18:23:40.575-04:002022-09-04T18:23:40.575-04:00YES! I had lost track of this post, but now that s...YES! I had lost track of this post, but now that squeen responded it's back! And now I can post THIS 4-page listing of the *differences between 1e and 2 AD&D!* That's a lot of differences! https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Zno25C2BXZ9bsfUubrPYAfVreS3csvil/view?usp=sharingBaron Greystonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16636292202674906870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138202318040749770.post-51240405241999411912022-08-30T20:36:47.255-04:002022-08-30T20:36:47.255-04:00I play first edition AD&D, but would never con...I play first edition AD&D, but would never consider 2nd. Seems weird to me to lump them together.squeenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15975523149573452984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138202318040749770.post-15135715679834535032022-07-31T14:12:43.056-04:002022-07-31T14:12:43.056-04:00I sort of hate to get into this but while 2e may s...I sort of hate to get into this but while 2e may seem to be similar to 1e, it was filled with changes that were jarring at the time. Tables were changed, spell details were changed, classes and races cut, clerics and magic-users were somewhat twisted, the whole demons and devils thing, there were just loads of changes that altogether amounted to an avalanche. I remember running an "official" 2e tournament at a convention and when I told the players I would be referring to 1e books instead of 2e, I got quite a bit of outrage. From where we sit all these years later, we might be tempted to say, "Oh they were essentially the same," but then the whole point of your excercise is kind of lost. All D&D, in fact all RPGs, have many common elements. You can create little subsets as much as you like, but they're essentially going to be subjective distinctions as I think these comments bear out.Baron Greystonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16636292202674906870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138202318040749770.post-45575183408231759192022-07-31T13:24:36.305-04:002022-07-31T13:24:36.305-04:00Thank you for your thoughts Derek - interesting!
...Thank you for your thoughts Derek - interesting! <br />On point 1) I Actually I very nearly lumped Holmes in with Beta (OD&D + Supplements) because some 75% + of the text is lifted verbatim from 3lbb's and Supplement I. The main reason I didn't was the very specific and very new movement rules for combat which play out very differently from the 30' melee distance of OD&D and alter the game in a way that is still felt. Surprise is in Holmes, and I would argue that most of the other things you mention are of no great importance and vary even within editions, except that Morale as introduced in Moldvay, is a good point. I think the "dealbreaker" for me though for setting Holmes on its own is the rather short list of things in the Cook/Marsh expert rulebook (page x4) needed to use it with the Holmes book instead of the Moldvay book. Overall they are pretty compatible.<br />On point 2), well, again I would simply ask what is the substantive difference between 1e core and 2e core? Anything? If we were going to include additions, suggestions and changes that come out post core rulebooks we could probably claim there are 30 or 40 editions of D&D, maybe. OTOH, while I don't have any personal experience of 3e I've seen various write-ups that claim the changes of 3.5 were quite extensive - but as I said, I wouldn't die on any of these hills. :) DHBoggshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02170439175265397893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138202318040749770.post-1988499515602565312022-07-25T15:45:04.599-04:002022-07-25T15:45:04.599-04:00A couple criticisms:
1) Holmes really should be i...A couple criticisms:<br /><br />1) Holmes really should be its own version. It's initiative system and alignment are totally unique to that version. Even your lumping it in with Basic is perhaps suspect because its combat is much closer to OD&D than Moldvay. Things like group initiative, ability modifiers, weapon-specific damage, surprise, morale, critical hits, etc. that are in common between B/X / BECMI are noticeably absent in Holmes. The only things that carry over to B/X and beyond are that some of the monster bonuses/penalties/descriptions in RC are sometimes closer to Holmes than AD&D.<br /><br />2) It is a bit odd that you gloss over the changes between 1e and 2e, but not between 3.0e and 3.5e. Regardless, even if you make that distinction, then I would argue AD&D 2e becomes its own edition in '95 with the release of the Player's Options books (which some colloquially call "2.5 edition").Derek Nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05421470031572606854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138202318040749770.post-64839148015937925292022-07-23T20:55:00.748-04:002022-07-23T20:55:00.748-04:00Corathon, it would be interesting to know your rea...Corathon, it would be interesting to know your reasons for thinking so. Off-hand the only difference between 1e and 2e core rules I can remember is that the price for hiring a carpenter changed, and priests got spheres for customized spells.DHBoggshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02170439175265397893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138202318040749770.post-51106245777659769002022-07-16T18:06:12.148-04:002022-07-16T18:06:12.148-04:00If 3.0 & 3.5 are different editions, then 1E &...If 3.0 & 3.5 are different editions, then 1E & 2E are different IMO.Corathonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15453135801686019143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138202318040749770.post-43704094059216334802022-07-10T20:21:18.276-04:002022-07-10T20:21:18.276-04:00I have no problem with lumping 1E and 2E AD&D ...I have no problem with lumping 1E and 2E AD&D into the same category. My friends and I did mix and match from the two editions freely in the mid-90s. And it worked. <br /><br />But were the 3.5 revisions really that extensive? I don't remember having that much trouble running 3.0 stuff (or even d20 Modern stuff) together with 3.5 base rules. Maybe I just never bumped up against the changes? Dennis Laffeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03053699552003336733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138202318040749770.post-7760182371081884982022-07-10T18:51:40.508-04:002022-07-10T18:51:40.508-04:00Seems about right if you're restricting yourse...Seems about right if you're restricting yourself to just TSR/WotC products. I certainly wouldn't assign Next to its own edition, it was just an ever-morphing public playtest.<br /><br />Let's face it though, Pathfinder 1st edition was D&D 3.75, and 13th Age is D&D 4.5. Not sure where to stick Pathfinder 2nd - it still isn't it's own thing by any stretch of the imagination, but it's much more divergent from 3/3.5 than 1st ed was. And that's not even considering the kajillion smaller retroclones and mods using the OGLs. For ex, Old School Essentials is what, a better laid-out version of Gamma edition? Lots and lots and lots of things that are D&D regardless of publisher or trade branding these days, and more coming steadily.Dick McGeehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14521293874696659063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3138202318040749770.post-2586020160466897622022-07-10T15:44:20.334-04:002022-07-10T15:44:20.334-04:00That was a fun idea. I think I'd lump beta and...That was a fun idea. I think I'd lump beta and gamma together (time and movement seem pretty negligible tweaks to me), as well as epsilon and zeta. But to each their own.Baron Greystonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16636292202674906870noreply@blogger.com